The following is a recent (August 2003) exchange of ideas between a Christian and a member of the Latter Day Saints.  Join the discussion by e-mailing     comments@wrpf.org

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.  This is a long one.

I'll try to answer some of your questions. I have some links to some other extensive work that others have contributed over the years. I could do a 
cut and paste of what they wrote but it was easier to provide the links as a reference.

It is not my intention to offend you. As you are sharing your thoughts with me, I do likewise in a manner of love. I have heard that Mormons 
rely a lot on their feelings ("burning in the bosom") to support what they believe. But scriptural references have priority over what one feels. After 
all, Muslims feel they are right with their Koran. And Jehovah Witnesses believe they are right.

It is refreshing to converse with a Mormon that is knowledgeable about the subject. In my references, I'll be using the KJV and the 
March 1994 edition of the Book of Mormon. 

May I state boldly that if one trusts in a false Jesus, one's faith is useless and this person will be lost. If a prophet teaches false
teachings he is a false prophet. I disagree with the statement made by John A. Widtsoe (quoted in Doctrines and Covenants Student Manual, 
page 166) that even the vilest sinners will inherit a glorious kingdom (terrestrial) after they die. Only those redeemed from sin 
will inherit a kingdom. All others will spend eternity with the devil and his demons.

I'd like to open with the following verse from the Holy Bible:

"No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law"  [Romans 3:20]


[>] IF THE BOOK OF MORMON IS A FRAUD, THEN PLEASE 
[>] ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:


I'm not saying that I think the Book of Mormon is a fraud, so I would not be in a position to answer those many questions that you posed. 

My belief is that people cannot believe in both the Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible because they are diametrically opposed. I believe that 
neither are corrupt but exist as basically the way they were formed.

The Book of Mormon is described as teaching with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines revealed in the Bible. Anyone who
will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as ... will find conclusive proof of the superiority
of the Book of Mormon (Mormon Doctrines, 1966, page 99).


[>] 1 Cr 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven 
[>] or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 
[>] If the modern concept of the Trinity is true, then why does the 
[>] different LDS view on the oneness of God find such strong support in the 
[>] writings of the earliest Christians?


Some pagans believed their gods existed in both heaven and earth but actually Paul says that there is ONLY ONE God in Heaven. Mormon 
theology teaches that there are many gods in heaven.

Joseph Smith taught that "As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be. The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles p. 59.

God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute 
that idea... God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. Joseph Smith, 
quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 325.

"I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form..." Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.

God is a glorified and perfected man, a personage of flesh and bones.  Gospel Principles, p.9.

This view of God as an exalted man appears to have limited their perspective of God's power and majesty, reducing his power to that which 
a man can fathom. The Mormon god has flesh and bones. He appears to be limited by these human characteristics. For instance he is not 
omnipresent They ridicule the belief that God is a spirit:

"I do not believe in the doctrine held by some that God is only a Spirit and that he is of such a nature that he fills the immensity of space, and is 
everywhere present in person, or without person, for I can not conceive it possible that God could be a person, if he filled the immensity of space 
and was everywhere present at the same time. It is unreasonable, a physical, a theological inconsistency, to imagine that even God the eternal 
Father would be in two places, as an individual, at the same moment. It is impossible. But his power extends throughout the immensity of space. 
His power extends to all his creations, and his knowledge comprehends them all, and he governs them all and he knows all. Teachings of the 
Presidents of the Church Joseph F. Smith p.337. Text named for Melchezidek Priesthood & Relief Society Sunday Meetings for 2001 year.

Soon pagan beliefs dominate the thinking of those called "Christians."... Members of this church believed that God was a being without form or 
substance. Gospel Principles, p. 105.

Evidence of this "limited god" perspective can be found in subtle ways. Some common Mormon expressions include a cross-stitch in a Mormon 
kitchen that reads "God can't be everywhere, that's why he invented mothers". Or, "I would never be cremated, how could God put all those 
pieces back together?" Perceiving God as man has a limiting effect on the perception of that god's power. In contrast, seeing man as God has an 
exaggerating effect on the perception of a man's capability. This is a key characteristic of the doctrine of Mormonism. It is one reason why it is 
attractive to many people. It makes man the center of things and gives man, ultimately, the power of a god.

What shall we say of the most "clear and perfect book" - the Book of Mormon? I don't want to criticize you but the Book of Mormon doesn't
even contain major Mormon teachings such as "God having a body of flesh and bones", celestial marriage, eternal marriage, a progressive
God, a Mother God in Heaven, plurality of gods, God is a poligamist, and the Aaronic priesthood are NOT even found in the Book fo Mormon. 

Joseph Smith and those after him CONTRADICT even their own Mormon scriptures. As an honest person, you cannot ignore this.

Joseph Smith taught that God is an exalted man. God is NOT an exalted man (Alma 18:28). 

Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was born through physical sexual relations with Mary (MD, page 547). The Bible says that Mary
was a virgin and that she conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. Also, Alma (7:10) says Mary was a virgin. If she had
physical sexual relations, she would not be a virgin! 

Joseph Smitch taught that man progressed into God. But God does NOT change (D&C 20:17, Mormon 9:9-11, Moroni 8:18).

Joseph Smith was a polygamist and taught that Jesus was a polygamist. But Jacob (2:24) says that "plurality of wives" is an abomination to God.

Joseph Smith taught that Jesus and Lucifer are created spirit brothers, and yet the title page of the Book of Mormon says that Jesus is 
the Christ the ETERNAL God. Also, in 2 Nephi 26:12, it says that Jesus is the ETERNAL God. According to the Bible, Lucifer is an 
angel ... and Jesus created all things. Lucifer is a creation of Jesus. 

Joseph Smith taught that men and women become sons and daughters of God BEFORE they are born physically upon the earth and that humans
were first born in heaven as a result of a relationship between God and one of his many wives. Besides these teachings not being
found in the Book of Mormon, quite the opposite is found which will surprise you! Mosiah (27:24-28) states, "And the Lord said
unto me, Marvel not that all mankind ... must be born again ... changed from their carnal and fallen estate to a state of 
righteousness, being redeemed of God, BECOMING HIS SONS AND DAUGHTERS ... inheriting the kingdom of God". This passage speaks 
of "becoming a new creature," something totally foreign to Mormonism which teaches that one must endure to the end to see 
which of the 3 kingdoms of which one might be worthy.

By FAITH, we are born again. Being born again is NOT a life time experience.

Joseph Smith taught that "The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, that is false"
(Doctrines and Covenants 130:3). But Alma (34:36) states "And this I know, because the Lord hath said He dwelleth not in unholy temples,
but in the hearts of the righteous doth He dwell".

Mormon Orson Pratt taught that God can progress no further in knowledge and power but Bringham Young taught the God he serves is progressing
eternally (Journal of Discourses 11:286).

Both the Book of Mormon and the Bible (James 1:17, Malachi 3:6) say that God does not change. "For I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal 3:6).

Joseph Smith taught that Jesus has a heavenly Father, and that Father has a father, and so on and so on. According to Smith, Jesus had a great great 
… grandfather, etc. But Mosiah 16:15 says that Jesus is the ETERNAL Father. There is ONLY ONE Father. Alma 11:38-39 also teaches that 
Jesus is the ETERNAL Father. Thus, Joseph Smith even contradicts the Book of Mormon.

[ Mormons – one God or many ]

"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by 
going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a greater one; from grace to grace." Joseph Smith, quoted in The Life and 
Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles , p. 24.

Do Mormons believe in one God, or in many? At first this would appear to be a trivial question. Since Mormons believe man can, and many have 
become gods, Mormons believe in more than one God. However, the Mormon church professes to believe in only one God. It claims to be 
monotheistic (one god) and not polytheistic (multiple gods). It will take a few moments to sort out the confusion.

First, Mormonism says that there are many gods. Mormons are taught that many gods helped to create and organize the earth (see Abraham chp. 4, 
Pearl of Great Price). However, they argue that they only worship, or believe in the one God that rules this world (or universe). This belief in 
one God is paramount in their scripture:

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? 27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. 28 Now 
Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29 And he answered, No. Alma 11:26-29 Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon dictates a belief in one and only one God. At first appearances, this God is the same Triune God worshipped by Christians, 
truly one God, with three personages:

...to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God,... Mormon 7:7 
Book of Mormon

Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. D&C 20:28

But the concept of a Triune God is rejected by the founder of Mormonism and its first prophet, Joseph Smith:

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and 
one in three!... He would be a wonderfully big God - he would be a giant or a monster. Joseph Smith History of the Church of Latter-day Saints, 
volume 6 p. 476.

These teachings create a very visible seeming CONTRADICTION within Mormonism. What most Mormons profess to believe in is actually three 
separate Gods, organized into one Godhead by the sharing of a common purpose. This is stated by Mormons as believing in one God. It is 
impossible for non-Mormons to combine the disparate statements about the Mormon God (or Gods) into one coherent thought. It would appear 
that Mormonism professes a belief in one, three, or many gods, depending on the context. 

God is one supreme and absolute being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things (see 
Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 18-23). Gospel Principles Chapter 1 Our Father in Heaven, p. 9.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.
How are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one? To answer, use the example of a father, mother, and children working for the same purpose. 
Gospel Principles Chapter 7 The Holy Ghost, p. 37

Therefore, in order to hold together these seemingly disparate statements of doctrine, from different doctrinal sources, Mormonism must carefully 
craft a statement of belief that actually allows for one to profess each of these beliefs (one, three, or many gods) without eliminating any of them. 
This is an example of doublespeak. The statement below uses 'God' singular, but then lists three separate individuals, each of which are 
believed to be a separate god.

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. First Article of Faith

The Bible has at least 27 passages which teach there is only ONE God. God the Father does not have a father, and His father does not have a 
father. God doesn't have a great great great grandfather, and so on and so on.

Here is the strongest example:

"Before Me no god was formed,
nor will there be after Me.
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from Me there is no saviour" (Isaiah 43:10-11).

Jesus said, "before Abraham was, I AM". Jesus always existed and is the ETERNAL and EVERLASTING God.


[>] What other Church better follows the Biblical model of emphasizing 
[>] the covenant nature of the Gospel? It is difficult to read the Old 
[>] Testament or New Testament without seeing a heavy emphasis on 
[>] sacred covenants between God and man. Covenants are the tool for 
[>] bringing man to God and rescuing fallen from sin through the 
[>] Atonement of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.


From a Biblical perspective, Jesus gave only ONE covenant. The terms Covenant and Testament are interchangeable. Many scriptural references 
show "THE" new covenant instead of "A" new covenant. That a big difference.

Basically, the Bible talks about 2 main covenants {Romans 9:4, Galatians 4:24, and Ephesians 2:12}.

The disciples and Jesus taught the NEW covenant (singular) is what brings man to God: {Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 
11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6,14, Hebrews {7:22, 9:15-20} }

There are some huge problems with Joseph Smith's continuation of the Aaronic priesthood.

[1] the new priesthood established by Jesus eliminated the Aaronic priesthood.
[2] J. Smith's version is totally different from the original Aaronic priesthood.

[1] Jesus replaced the Aaronic priesthood with a new one.

The Old Covenant was the Aaronic system of sacrifices and the Aaronic priesthood. In the New Covenant, Jesus fulfills the Law and gets rid of 
both these types of sacrifices and priesthood.

{Hebrews 7:11-13} - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical 
priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need 
[was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, 
and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the PRIESTHOOD 
BEGIN CHANGED, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 

{Hebrews 9:15-16} - And for this cause he is the mediator of THE new 
testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions 
[that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive 
the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must 
also of necessity be the death of the testator. 

As I wrote in my last e-mail, the new priesthood is the "holy priesthood of 
believers in Jesus" {1 Peter 2:5, Revelation {1:6, 5:10, and 20:6}}. Jesus 
is the mediator of the new covenant in His Blood. This is what he teaches 
during the Last Supper. {1 Peter 2:5} - Ye also, as lively stones, are built 
up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, 
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[2] Joseph Smith's version of the priesthood is different from the original 
Aaronic priesthood and the new priesthood established by Jesus.

The Mormon Aaronic priesthood forbids women from becoming priests 
(much like the Catholic system). In the body of Christ, female 
believers are already priests and do not have to be ordained. This is the 
royal priesthood of believers that Peter wrote about in 1 Peter chapter 2.

Up until 1975 or so, blacks were forbidden to become priests. In the body 
of Christ, believers who are black men or black women are already priests 
and do not have to be ordained.

The original Aaronic priesthood followed a very detailed set of rules, 
regulations, animal sacrifices, grain offerings, and wearing of garments. 
Joseph Smith has basically "thrown out the baby with the bath water". 
Joseph Smith eliminated the animal sacrifices, grain offerings, special 
garments, etc, etc and replaced it with his own version. It is no longer 
the Aaronic priesthood.

Irregardless, it can be shown from the Bible that Jesus replaced the 
priesthood with a new one. The royal priesthood (spiritual) of believers. 
Non-Aaronic.

The spiritual sacrifices of the New Covenant are acceptable to God instead 
of the physical Aaronic sacrifices of the Old/Mormon covenant.

I saw this on someone's web site. He said: a spiritual sacrifice is an act of 
giving up and offering to God our time and effort in a way that is pleasing 
to Him. What makes a spiritual sacrifice acceptable to God? Is it merely 
the sacrificing of our time and effort? No, it is more than that. Comparing 
the sacrifice of Noah to the hypocritical sacrifices of the children of Israel 
shows that the attitude and righteousness of the offerer is important to God 
(Genesis 8:20-21; Amos 5:21-27). A spiritual sacrifice must be offered in 
an attitude of obedience, humility, and reverence.

Praising God is a spiritual sacrifice. "Therefore by Him [Christ] let us 
continually offer the sacrifices of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our 
lips, giving thanks to His name" (Hebrews 13:15). Sincerely offering 
praise to God is an acceptable sacrifice which pleases Him. Praise is a 
form of spiritual worship that helps us stay focused on God.


[>] If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what 
[>] happened to prophets? They were a crucial part of the original 
[>] Church. Why aren't they in yours?


We still have prophets (prophesying, predicting the future?, etc) in the 
church even though they are not designated as prophets with official titles 
like Pastor or Reverend. Personally I don't like the title Reverend because 
in the Bible, only God is referred to as Reverend.

But in Mormon theology, Jesus' church ceased to exist and Joseph Smith 
came to restore it. I think this is referred to as the great apostasy.

Unfortunately for the Mormons, there is no evidence to support what 
Joseph Smith believed about this apostasy. He didn't believe in some 
Christian teachings, but it is totally uncalled for to say that its apostate. 
Likewise, Muslims can also claim that Muhummed brought Islam to 
correct the apostasy, but this is not correct either. As can be shown, the 
Koran is totally different from the Bible like the Book of Mormon is 
different from the Bible. Just because Muhammed said Islam is right 
doesn't make it so. His Jesus was only a prophet and no more. The 
Mormon God was once a man who progressed to become a God.

According to the Bible, Jesus built his Church and it would exist for all 
time {Matthew 16:18}. There are disagreements between some churches 
but they all hold the basic fundamental truths of the Bible since Jesus 
founded his church. So the church of Christ has never ceased to exist. 
After the founding of Christ's church by himself, there was NEVER a 
time when His church did not exist. The church of Christ prevails for all 
time. So Mormons are not in good company.

Using the gift of prophecy, leaders in today's churches also receive the 
infilling of the Holy Spirit and some revelation based on what has already 
been revealed.

When new revelations conflict or change the old revelations, you have a 
problem. That's how the likes of David Koresh (Waco, Texas) arise.

God does have prophets on the earth today.

According to Ephesians (4:11), God gave "some prophets, apostles, 
evangelists, pastores, and teachers" for the edification of the church". 
Notice that there is NO mention of the Aaron priesthood.


[>] Joseph Smith's baptism for the dead. There is one obscure passage in 
[>] the Bible that mentions people being baptized for the dead, but that 
[>] one verse is not much to go on.


"Baptism for the dead" is actually condemned by the Book of Mormon. 
See: Alma (34:32-35)

According to the Bible, Hebrews 9:27, Proverbs 11:7and Luke 16:19-31 
clearly states that there is judgment after death. Second chances do not 
exist.

http://www.irr.org/mit/baptdead.html is a really good reference to explain 
this.


[>] At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no 
[>] longer needed, how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient 
[>] temple concept on his own? 


Joseph Smith also missed the whole meaning of temples.

Not only does the Mormon church have meeting houses, they also have 
temples. Mormons do not attend their temple for weekly Sunday 
worship. Instead, Mormon temples are used for special purposes that are 
outside of the regular weekly worship. A saying in Mormonism is that 
"the road to exaltation leads through the temple."

There are currently over one hundred Mormon temples throughout the 
world, with others in construction or being planned. Each building is 
magnificent and majestic. They are tall marble buildings that outshine 
other buildings around them. The most famous and magnificent temple is 
the one in Salt Lake City, Utah, seen below.

These temples are the site of much work within the Mormon church. Any 
Mormon desiring eternal life, that is exaltation or an eternal family or 
godhood; must perform certain ordinances at one of the temples. But 
before a Mormon can even enter one of the temples, he or she must be 
worthy. Each Mormon must annually pass an interview process that, if 
successful, rewards him or her with a 'temple recommend' in the form of a 
small ID card which allows him or her to enter the temple. In order to 
pass this interview, Mormons must

- Have been members for at least one year.
- Be willing to follow the prophet and all other church leaders.
- Be current in their tithe.
- Be keeping the Word of Wisdom (rules such as no coffee, tobacco, 
alcohol, etc.).
- Have been recommended by their bishop.
- Bear their testimony as to the truth of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, etc.
- Be morally clean (sexually pure).
- Have not associated with apostates (people who have left the Mormon 
church).
- Confess 'serious' sins.
- Be active in the church.
- Not watch inappropriate TV or movies.
- Have honored the Sabbath (no work, no hobbies, no shopping, no 
hunting, no sports, 'constructive thoughts and acts', etc.).
- Conduct monthly fasting


Only 25-30% of Mormons are temple worthy. Some Mormons do not go 
through the process to qualify for a temple recommend because they live a 
long way from a Mormon temple. But the main reason why so few are 
temple worthy is simply that many do not make the grade.



Temple Irony

Mormon doctrine bases belief in the need of temples on the Old Testament 
use of the temple. It is ironic that while Old Testament believers went to 
the temple to cleanse themselves from sin, that is; they went to the temple 
to become worthy; Mormonism states Mormons must be worthy before 
they can go to the temple. The Mormon belief in the necessity of temple 
buildings also denies the significance of one of the most dramatic events 
in the life and death of our Lord Jesus Christ:

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he 
gave up his spirit.51 At that moment the curtain of the 
temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth 
shook and the rocks split. Matthew 27:50-51

The symbolic meaning of the tearing of the curtain is not understood by 
Mormons. This tearing of the temple curtain signaled the end of our need 
for a temple building to stand between us and our Father in Heaven. Jesus 
made temples obsolete. He has become our High Priest forever. He is the 
only way to eternal life, opened to us when the old temple's curtain tore. 
Torn because of Christ's blood, sacrificed once to pay the price of 
redemption forever. No other payment is needed or could even be made.
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that 
are already here, he went through the greater and more 
perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, 
not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means 
of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the 

Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having 
obtained eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:11-12
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter 
the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new 
and living way opened for us through the curtain, that 
is, his body, Hebrews 10:19-20

In the final analysis, we Christians are God's temple and God lives in us. 
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple 
and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys 
God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is 
sacred, and you are that temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16
Unfortunately for Mormons, Mormonism teaches that the temple still 
stands between them and eternal life with Heavenly Father.



Personal Ordinances

Temple work can be divided into two groups, ordinances one must do for 
one's progression to eternal life and ordinances done for the dead. Every 
Mormon must go to the temple to perform the ordinance of endowment 
and the ordinance of marriage.

The endowment ceremony initiates Mormons into temple work. It 
receives its name from the belief that it endows people with power and 
protection.

If we realize what we are doing, then the endowment 
will be a protection to us all our lives - a protection 
which a man who does not go to the temple does not 
have. Temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of 
Latter-day Saints, p. 14.

The ceremony begins with temple workers ceremonially washing and 
anointing various parts of the participant's body, signifying his or her total 
dedication to the Lord. The participant then receives sacred 
undergarments. Mormonism teaches these garments, when worn, provide 
protection from sin and Satan. They are to be worn for the rest of the 
participant's life, day and night. Continuing in the ceremony, the 
participant views a presentation of the LDS view of creation, the Fall, and 
the subsequent history of the world. They are taught special handshakes 
and given a secret name. These things are to provide knowledge 
necessary to gain eternal life.

"Your endowment is, to receive all those ordinances in 
the House of the Lord, which are necessary for you, 
after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk 
back to the presence of the Father, passing the angels 
who stand as sentinels, being enabled to give them the 
key words, the signs and tokens, pertaining to the Holy 
Priesthood, and gain your eternal exaltation in spite of 
earth and hell" Past President and Living Prophet 
Brigham Young, quoted in Endowed From on High 
Temple Preparation Seminar, p. 2.

Little is told participants about the endowment ceremony before they 
arrive at the temple. Most of the experience is to be kept secret and is not 
to be discussed outside of the temple, even with spouses. One thing 
people are told is that the ceremony is very symbolic in nature and that 
only those who are worthy and spiritually prepared will understand these 
symbols.

Explain that almost every aspect of the temple 
ceremony is symbolic. This means that each person 
should prepare to be as spiritually sensitive as possible 
to the symbolic nature of the temple endowment. 
Endowed From on High Temple Preparation 
Seminar, p. 24.

Stories with symbols present truth in such a way that 
those who are spiritually prepared understand the 
meaning of the symbols. Those who are not prepared 
do not understand the meaning Endowed From on 
High Temple Preparation Seminar, p. 22.

The second temple ordinance required for exaltation is marriage. Only 
temple marriages are for time and eternity. This ceremony seals husband 
and wife and all future children together as an eternal family. Often a 
Mormon couple may be married twice, first in a ceremony outside of the 
temple ( because both participants are not yet temple worthy or are not 
located near a temple) and later in a temple marriage ceremony. Children 
born to a couple before their temple marriage, which may be performed 
years after their marriage outside of the temple, can also be sealed to their 
parents in a separate ceremony. Both husband and wife must have 
completed the endowment ceremony. Without a spouse sealed to you for 
all eternity, there is no chance at being exalted. Since the point of 
exaltation is to become a god and populate your own world by propagating 
spirit children, a husband and wife (or wives) team is imperative.

No man can be saved and exalted in the kingdom of God 
without the woman, and no woman can reach the 
perfection and exaltation in the kingdom of God alone. 
The Life and Teachings of Jesus & His Apostles, p. 
291.


Vicarious Ordinances

Mormonism teaches that a person's progression toward eternal life 
continues past the grave. It even teaches that people who have not had the 
chance to convert to Mormonism in their earthly life will have the chance 
after death in the spirit world. We will present more about the Mormon 
teaching concerning the spirit world in a subsequent chapter. For now it is 
important to understand the Mormon teaching that while people may 
convert to Mormonism after death in the spirit world, they cannot receive 
baptisms or temple ordinances there. Therefore people on earth now must 
receive these ordinances for the dead.

Mormons go to the temple to stand in the place of dead relatives and 
others, being baptized, going through the endowment ceremony, and 
receiving temple marriages. This work is called vicarious temple work. If 
one had a past grand uncle who never married, one might vicariously 
receive a temple marriage with someone who had a female relative that 
never married. This on the chance that both might have converted to 
Mormonism in the spirit world, thus providing them a chance to become 
exalted. This work is one one the three main missions of the LDS 
Church. It is called "Redeeming the Dead".

Since these ordinances are required for exaltation, this work for the dead is 
seen as a very important service. It is seen as one of the greatest works 
that can be done to further their own progression. This is also why 
Mormons are so involved in genealogy work. One cannot be baptized for 
an ancestor that one doesn't know one has. Only the dead that can be 
identified in past records can have vicarious ordinances performed for 
them.

All this temple work establishes a central role for Mormon temples within 
Mormonism. This importance is illustrated by the Mormon church's 
direction to its members that they are to have a picture of one of the 
temples hanging in their home. The temple occupies the same place in 
Mormonism that Christ's cross occupies in Christianity. 

Each holy temple stands as a symbol of our membership 
in the Church, as a sign of our faith in life after death, 
and as a sacred step toward eternal glory for us and our 
families. President Hinckley said that "these unique and 
wonderful buildings, and the ordinances administered 
therein, represent the ultimate in our worship. These 
ordinances become the most profound expressions of 
our theology." Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of 
the Twelve Apostles Ensign, May 2001, p. 32.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the 
gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross 
of Christ be emptied of its power.18 For the message of 
the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but 
to us who are being saved it is the power of God 1 
Corinthians 1:17-18

Symbols of the cross are conspicuously from Mormon houses of worship. 
It is the temples that have center stage. Mormon temples and the works 
performed within them are a source of great pride.
I believe we find the beauty and sanctity of "his holy 
place" as we enter the magnificent temples of 
God...Each temple building is an inspiration, magnificent 
and beautiful in every way, but the temple building 
alone does not bless. The endowed blessings and divine 
functions—involving much that is not of this world, such 
as priesthood keys—come through obedience and 
faithfulness to priesthood authority and covenants 
made. As we feel and see the awesome beauty of each 
temple, we see in vision and hold in our remembrance 
the endless blessings that will come to so many through 
its being ... In the magnificence and splendor of our 
modern temples, ... President James E. Faust Second 
Counselor in the First Presidency Ensign, August 2001, 
p. 2.

In contrast, Christians honor the cross and the vicarious work of Jesus. No 
building, no work of man is worthy of our boasts.
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus 
Christ, through which the world has been crucified to 
me, and I to the world. Galatians 6:14

Are Mormon Temples an Extension of the Biblical Temple?

See the excellent article at http://www.irr.org/mit/temple.html


[>] What other church better corresponds with early Christianity in terms 
[>] of teaching the true relationship between faith, grace, and works?


According to the Bible, we are saved by faith alone. It is a free gift. The 
idea that we owe something to Jesus for saving us is not found in the 
Bible.

Mormonism teaches a works-based + faith salvation.


[>] If it is a Mormon heresy to say that we must strive to keep the 
[>] commandments if we wish to receive eternal life, then why did Christ say 
[>] "keep the commandments" when a man asked what he must do to gain 
[>] eternal life (see Math. 19:17)? 

Jesus said, "but f thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments". In 
verse 18, the person asked Jesus, "Which?". Then the Lord Jesus flashed 
on this young man's life the commandments that have to do with a man's 
relationship to his fellowman. This young man could say that he had kept 
these commandments, and yet he recognized a lack in his life. The 
commandments which Jesus gave him compose the last section of the 
Decalogue which has to do with man's relationship to man. The first part 
of the Ten Commandments have to do with man's relationship to God. 
Jesus did not use those because He was leading this young man along in 
his thinking. However, now Jesus directs his thinking to his relationship 
with God – 

Jesus said unto him, If you wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and 
give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come and 
follow me".

It was this man's riches that was keeping him from following Jesus.

Later on, Jesus said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a 
needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" (verse 24). 
"When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who 
then can be saved" (verse 25). "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto 
them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" 
(verse 26).

This is the explanation. As far as any person is concerned – regardless of 
who you are – you are a candidate for salvation if you recognize that you 
have nothing to offer God but come to him like a beggar with empty 
hands. When you come to Jesus like that, he can save you. With God, all 
things are possible.


[>] If our works and righteousness have nothing to do with God accepting 
[>] us, then why did Peter in Acts 10: 34,35 say "that God is no respecter of 
[>] persons, but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh 
[>] righteousness, is accepted with him"?


What does it mean to work righteousness? Romans 1:17 – "For therein is 
the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The 
just shall live by faith". Romans 4:3 – "Abraham believed God, and it was 
counted unto him for righteousness". Romans 4:5 – "But to him that 
worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is 
counted for righteousness". Romans 10:10 – "heart of man believeth unto 
righteousness". 

The law was given to show that every person is a sinner and that they
cannot do anything to save themselves. Galatians (3:24) - "Wherefore
the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ that we may be
JUSTIFIED by FAITH".

Christ's priesthood is superior to the Aaronic one (Hebrews 7:15).

"Jesus perfected for ever THEM that ARE sanctified (Hebrews 10:14).
Jesus made believers perfect, but believers cannot make themselves
perfect like the Mormons teach.

It is yet another irony of Mormonism that the LDS church calls nonmembers 
Gentiles. We see this irony in the inspired words of Paul who identifies 
the stumbling stone of eternal life gained through works.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, 
have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who 
pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because 
they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled 
over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a 
stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

"Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is 
that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are 
zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they 
did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to 
establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ 
is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone 
who believes. [Romans 9:30-10:4]

"No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law"
[Romans 3:20]



[>] If God wishes to save only a few, then why did Paul write that God 
[>] "will have [wants] all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of 
[>] the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4)? Why in 2 Peter 3:9 did Peter write that God wants 
[>] none to perish but wants men to repent? And why did Christ say that "it is 
[>] not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones 
[>] should perish" (Matt. 18:14)? 


I'm not aware of any verse that says God only wishes to save a few.

[>] If it's unchristian, unbiblical, and evil to belive that humans have 
[>] divine potential, why do many Biblical and early Christian sources speak 
[>] of the humans becoming "gods"?

There are no Biblical verses that show humans becoming gods. 

John 10:34 and Psalm 82:6 are difficult for me to personally explain so I'll 
do some cut and paste of some commentary that I've seen.

One thing to note is that Jesus (in John 10:34) is quoting someone 
(David?) in Psalms 82:6 who said "Ye are gods".

Jesus defends his claim using language they should be able to understand, 
through an appeal to the law. He cites a text that uses the word god of 
those who are not God: Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are 
gods"? (v. 34). It is unclear who is being referred to in Psalm 82:6. Of the 
several proposals made by scholars (cf. Beasley-Murray 1987:176-77), the 
most likely takes this as a reference either to Israel's judges or to the 
people of Israel as they receive the law. The latter is a common 
understanding among the rabbis (for example, b. 'Aboda Zara 5a; Exodus 
Rabbah 32:7), but the former is also represented in Jewish interpretation 
(Midrash Psalms; b. Sanhedrin 6b; 7a; b. Sota 47b). Jesus' explanation that 
these gods are those to whom the word of God came (v. 35) might point to 
the Israelites receiving the law. In this case the contrast between these 
gods and Jesus would be that Jesus is the one who both fulfills the law and 
is greater than the law. But this expression to whom the word of God came 
could also refer to the judges (as suggested by the rest of Ps 82) who have 
received a commission from God to exercise the divine prerogative of 
judgment on his behalf. The psalm is actually a condemnation of the 
judges for not exercising their responsibility faithfully, thus corresponding 
both to the condemnation of these Jewish leaders in John and to Jesus as 
the true judge. 

To make his point Jesus uses an argument from the lesser to the greater, a 
very common form of argument in the ancient world, not least among the 
rabbis. He compares the people who are called gods to himself, the Son of 
God. They merely received the word of God, whereas he is the one whom 
the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world (v. 36). Here is 
a succinct summary of the central truth of his identity, which has been 
emphasized throughout this Gospel. He is using the language of an agent 
(see note on 5:21), but the implication is that he existed with the Father 
before coming into the world. Thus, he is putting himself in the category 
of the law that was given by God rather than in the category of one of the 
recipients of that law. By saying he was set apart ("consecrated," hagiazo) 
he is claiming a status similar to the temple, whose reconsecration these 
opponents are celebrating at this feast. 

What he means by the title Son of God goes beyond anything they had 
thought before, but it is not a denial of the truths of Scripture. Indeed, the 
Scripture itself, as illustrated by Psalm 82:6, contains hints of such a 
revelation, and the Scripture cannot be broken (v. 35); the Scripture cannot 
be kept from fulfillment (Brown 1966:404). This parenthetical comment 
spoken by Jesus shows how important this line of argument is for Jesus 
and John. But, as with all other arguments, it only makes sense if the 
listener is open to entertaining the truth of who Jesus is. 

This psalm is misunderstood by some to be, "A denunciation of the angels 
whom God had put in charge of the earth,"F1 a position that was 
advocated by Professor Cheyne, who cited Dan. 10:13-21 and Dan. 12:1 
as supporting the notion that angels have charge of earthly affairs. 
However, in the first reference, Michael the archangel is called, not a 
ruler, but "a helper"; and Dan. 12:1 says nothing that is inconsistent with 
the statement in Hebrews that all of God's angels are "ministering spirits," 
that is, serving spirits, "Sent forth to do service for them that shall inherit 
salvation" (Hebrews 1:14). 

All authority in heaven and upon earth belongs to Jesus Christ (Matthew 
28:18-20); and that leaves none at all for angels, except in a very limited 
and secondary sense, as they are assigned to do many things for the benefit 
of God's children. Our commentaries on Daniel and Hebrews, Under the 
references cited here, carry full discussions of all the questions raised by 
these passages. 

The verse within this psalm which triggers such speculations as that of 
Cheyne is Ps. 82:6: 

"I said, Ye are gods, 

And all of you sons of the Most High." (Psalms 82:6) 

The incorrect notion that "sons of God" is a reference to angels is based 
upon a misinterpretation of Gen. 6:2; but there are no less than seven 
reasons why the "sons of God," mentioned in Gen. 6:2 cannot possibly be 
"angels." An enumeration of these reasons is given in our commentary on 
Genesis (Vol. I of the Pentateuchal Series), pp. 98, 99. 

Could we be wrong about this? Absolutely not! For Christ himself told us 
who the "gods" and "sons of God" in Ps. 82:6 really were. 

Jesus answered them, Is it not written ... I said, Ye are gods? If he called 
them gods unto whom the Word of God came (and the scripture cannot be 
broken), how say ye of him ... whom the Father sent into the world, Thou 
blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36)
Christ in this passage quoted the 6th verse of this psalm (Psalms 82:6), 
identifying the "gods" and "sons of God" (the Most High) in our passage 
here as the persons who had received God's law. They were not angels, but 
human judges, whose wickedness is so severely denounced in this psalm. 

Like Maclaren, we accept our Lord's reference to Ps. 82:6 in John 10:34ff 
"As authoritatively settling both the meaning and the ground of the 
remarkable name `gods' for human judges."F2 As McCaw stated it, 
"`Gods' here means, `you sit in God's place, exercising judgment.'"F3 

The gross error of some scholars in not catching on to what "gods" in Ps. 
82:6 really means is due to only one thing, namely, their lack of 
knowledge of the New Testament. As we have frequently noted, nobody 
can really understand the Old Testament without a thorough knowledge of 
the New Testament. An apostle said as much in 2 Cor. 3:12-16. 

There are, to be sure, many suggestions as to the date; but Rawlinson's 
conclusion is as dependable as any that we know. 

The writer of this psalm may well have been the Asaph of David's time. It 
consists of an exordium (Psalms 82:1), denunciations (Psalms 82:2-7), and 
a conclusion (Psalms 82:8).
Ps. 82:1 

I looked at the website where it talks about humans having divine 
potential. We have potential to do good deeds but not be become divine. 
This part about the potential to become gods was told to Adam and Eve by 
Satan in the garden of Eden.

According to the Bible, we'll have glorified resurrected bodies, but we 
won't be gods.

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, 
a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor 
taketh reward:

This section is comparing the real God with the false gods of those nations 
around Israel.


[>] If the Bible is infallible, complete, and sufficient, then which Bible? 
[>] How do you know?


As far as I know, all the different styles of the Bibles (KJV, NIV, etc) 
teach the same. Some members in my church use the modern style of the 
NIV whereas I use the KJV. Others prefer the other styles because it more 
closely resembles the English that they are more comfortable. The Indian 
translation of the KJV is no doubt not 100% the same but they teach the 
same Jesus as the English KJV.

If you put your faith in a Jesus that is false, then your faith is useless.

The True Salvation

Mormons believe that one's salvation is based on such good works as 
baptism, good deeds, missionary work, and following Mormon 
teachings. In The Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, justification by 
faith in Jesus Christ is called a "pernicious doctrine" twice and he states 
that it has been "an influence for evil." {pp. 107, 480} Bruce McConkie 
once stated at Brigham Young University that a personal relationship 
with Jesus Christ is "improper and perilous" {Church News, March 20, 
1982, p. 5} 

Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that 
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man 
should boast." Romans 4:5 says that salvation comes to those who do 
not work for salvation, but believe on Jesus Christ instead! 

Jesus Christ came into this world to lay down His sinless life for people -
- to pay for their sins because they couldn't save themselves. Jesus is your 
only hope for 
salvation. Only by receiving Him as your Saviour can you enter the 
gates of Heaven. There is no other way. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the 
way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." 
{John 14:6} "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none 
other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be 
saved." {Acts 4:12} 

The Lord Jesus Christ has come and PAID for your sins by shedding 
His own Blood on Calvary. By receiving Him as your Saviour, you can 
be WASHED from all your sins in His precious Blood {Rev. 1:5; Col. 
1:14; Acts 20:28; I Pet. 1:18-19}. Notice these important words from 
Romans 5:8-9: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while 
we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now 
justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." 

Jesus PAID the way to Heaven! A church cannot save you. Only 
by receiving Jesus Christ as your Saviour can you escape the damnation

[>] If the Bible is infallible, by whose authority were the various books of 
[>] the Bible selected in an infallible manner? By whose authority were the 
[>] infallible translations made and approved?


Its beyond my knowledge to answer who authorized the 66 books of the 
Bible to be the authoritative ones.

Sincerely,

WRPF